Random Freezes, Hardware Caused?

Howdy all I'm having a heck of a time figuring out what is going on with a friend's system. It is less than a year old, spotlessly clean inside the case, 256 MB ram, EIDE hard drive, Celeron D processor. The system will randomly hang. It is not reproducible other than it will hang randomly. I tried swapping RAM, CHKDSK the drive with full surface scan which showed 1 or 2 minor problems from the crashes I'm guessing, and I've tried several virus and malware scanners. They would freeze somewhere along the way. I finally formatted and partitioned the drive with Win XP home edition. Was able to format the drive and partition it, but the install will fail at random places. The system totally freezes, requiring a hard power down. The strange thing is that once or twice the mouse cursor would still move on the screen although it would not do anything such as clicking a button. I do not get BSOD or any kind of exception messages such as I would expect if the processor or memory cache was going bad. I swapped RAM with some of my modules that I know are good. The hard drive is not getting corrupted which I would expect if the drive or controller were heading south. I'm having him have the power company check his electrical service since he lives in the country at the end of the line, but I am working on it at my place and my 3 systems plus other gadgets don't have power issues. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Ravius

Howdy all

I'm having a heck of a time figuring out what is going on with a friend's system. It is less than a year old, spotlessly clean inside the case, 256 MB ram, EIDE hard drive, Celeron D processor. The system will randomly hang. It is not reproducible other than it will hang randomly. I tried swapping RAM, CHKDSK the drive with full surface scan which showed 1 or 2 minor problems from the crashes I'm guessing, and I've tried several virus and malware scanners. They would freeze somewhere along the way. I finally formatted and partitioned the drive with Win XP home edition. Was able to format the drive and partition it, but the install will fail at random places. The system totally freezes, requiring a hard power down. The strange thing is that once or twice the mouse cursor would still move on the screen although it would not do anything such as clicking a button. I do not get BSOD or any kind of exception messages such as I would expect if the processor or memory cache was going bad. I swapped RAM with some of my modules that I know are good. The hard drive is not getting corrupted which I would expect if the drive or controller were heading south. I'm having him have the power company check his electrical service since he lives in the country at the end of the line, but I am working on it at my place and my 3 systems plus other gadgets don't have power issues. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Ravius

Hi Ravius
I'm just going to throw a couple of thing at you and you can check and see if they might apply.

Two things that came to mind while reading the symptoms were 1.) could it be heat? easy test is leave the case off and point a fan at it. If it doesn't crash then you know something is going on with the temps. The other thing was kind of a 2 part, hmmmm. Is the system running the factory video? is it build in? or was one added? If that was the case, and even if it's not another source of crashes can be the PSU. If anything that requires power from the PSU was added it could be the power supply, again another easy test since you have spare parts, try swapping the PSU with a known good one with enough power for everything in the system.

Hope that helps at least some.

Best regards
Tonka

Howdy Tonka, Thanks for the thoughts. The video card is a Radeon 7000 32 MB card which should be fairly low load on the PSU. Onboard video is disabled, but I can re-enable it just to test. I also have an older ATI X-300 I'll throw in there to see if that has something to do with it. As far as heat, the crashes can occur right after startup, and the case has plenty of ventilation. There is also a big honkin' Intel fan and heat sink on the processor and another fan on an exhaust port on the well ventilated case so I'm going to guess at this time that heat is probably not the issue. I may have to investigate the heat issue a bit though because the inside of the case is as dust free as if it was just built, which in my experience is usually not the case since air is pulled into the case and carries dust with it over time. The system is fairly low end and the power supply is rated 300 Watts, should be sufficient but I'll put one that is rated at 450 in and see if that helps. The system worked fine for 8 or 9 months though on the current config and my friend is an older gentleman who basically uses it for e-mail and printing digital pictures, and he has added nothing since purchasing the system. Thanks for the thoughts though, they were great suggestions. I thought about the PSU, but didn't think about the video card. Best Regards Ravius

Hi Ravius Did you try different sockets when you switched RAM blocks? And is the RAM sockets intact and dust/debris free? If I was sitting in front of that PC, I would put back in the original RAM module so I was sure it was fully compatible RAM sitting in it. Some main-boards does not support certain kinds of RAM brands, at least not fully. Reset BIOS to default settings to ensure the correct RAM timing. And then try my luck. With no OS, its very hard to troubleshoot hardware faults. If you don't have the right tool's to check the main-board and various components, its near impossible. Other than try and error method, which likely would not show any results. Your friend should make use of his warranty. If it is only about one year old, there should still be warranty left on it. Regards Abydos

Howdy Abydos, I tried reseating his RAM in Bank 0 and restarted, and then Bank 1. No errors reported by BIOS during POST. Only two sockets. Clicked fully in place. Inside the case is spotless. If he hadn't said he had this for as long as he did I would have sworn it just came out of a box. If only my rigs were this clean. Used same RAM type, different manufacturer, with same timing and gold contacts, both a single 256 MB stick and then two 128 MB sticks. No changes in freezes, still random. My RAM is Kingston and two old Corsairs. Should work fine but I know what you mean. Try mismatching ECC memory on a Dell server when Dell sends two different brands for warranty repair. Tried resetting BIOS to defaults, automatically recognized changes if dropped memory to just 128 MB. Seems to be OK that way. Tried ATI X-300 video card, still same problem. Still can't even get the OS installed without lockups. Almost ready to try installing DOS 5.0 or something. Thought I had a 450 W PSU that would fit his board, mine are too old, wrong connector types, so was not able to check if his PSU is flakey. Going to have to clean out all that "good stuff" from the closets one of these days like wife says. I don't have one of the cards that you can get error messages from anymore or any other way to test Motherboards. I do hardware repairs mostly to help friends nowadays, so haven't bothered getting current diagnostic tools. Good ol' trial and error is my method of choice now. I did try to run several software diagnostic tools I had but they were never able to complete testing or to generate reports before freezing before trying to reformat and reinstall his copy of XP. Evidently his system did not come with a full year warranty, bought it from a small town local dealer in a plain white box. The Motherboard is a decent one, it has PCI-e and sata connecters even though his system came with one EIDE drive. I do not see a brand name but "Made in China". I'm starting to think that is a brand name I see it so much anymore . Unfortunately he did pay a fairly hefty price for what he got, but he did not know different. I'm trying to help him out because he is a retiree. It kind of has gotten to be a pride thing for me now. I will fix this sheesh!!! At this point I'm thinking that it is probably has to be some sort of Motherboard problem. I could pull his processor, I think on of my Dells' sockets should be the same but I hate to start pulling apart a good system to check a potentially problematic part. I think I'll order him a new motherboard from newegg or someone if no one else has a better idea. I'm fresh out of what to try next. Thanks Abydos for the suggestions. Never hurts to check the basics. I thought I had a system that went kablooie not too long ago and I realized I forgot to plug in the computer after a half hour or so. Best Regards Ravius

Hi Ravius

CHKDSK the drive with full surface scan which showed 1 or 2 minor problems from the crashes I'm guessing

Have you try pull the HD, and hook it up to another machine?(You mentioned you had 3 machines)
Just to eliminate the HD as the culprit. Then you wouldn't have to guess

or the other way around. Hook a spare HD (if you have one) to his machine, and see if it will freeze also.

Regards Abydos

Howdy Abydos, I've got an older system that I can use fairly easily to try the drive. I'll give it a shot. I even thought about trying to install XP and somehow try to retrofit it back to the other system but I doubt that is really too viable an alternative. I've seen stranger things than this cause problems, and they call it computer science! Best Regards Ravius

and they call it computer science!

One can call most things science, as long you can wrap it up
in so obscure terms that normal people don't know what you are
talking about

Good luck with the try!

Abydos

Howdy All, Thought I'd fill you in on what I think has happened with the system. I never was able to try swapping a power supply because all I had was the 20 pin older ATX type instead of the 24 pin ATX 2.0 type connectors. Ordered a new Motherboard from newegg.com that appeared identical, but had the 20 pin connector. So contacted the company of the original box, a company called MSI Computer Corp. They make bare-bone boxes for VAR's and such to build to client specs. Anyway, their tech support guy agreed that since the power supply did seem to be functioning (ie. fan spinning, no loud humming or clicking, all peripherals powered, no burning or ozone smell, etc…) that the most likely candidate was the motherboard. They have a 3 year limited warranty on their motherboards which can be checked by serial number to see if it was manufactured in the prior three year period in case someone does not have the original purchase receipt. In this case my friend bought it from a local reseller who only offered a year of warranty support who had actually purchased the system. They do charge a $35 fee and upon receipt of the old board will test it and either repair or replace at their discretion. They were actually fairly easy to deal with and it was a big help that they could go by manufacture date of the motherboard according to model and serial numbers. I cannot recommend either for or against their products since this is my first experience with this particular company but they do get points so far on the tech support side. Anyway, they are sending me RMA info and want just the board, not even the processor. Evidently even the processors are added by the reseller. I was afraid long ago when I started troubleshooting this darn thing that the board was the problem but I checked all the other peripherals just to rule them out thanks to some of your suggestions. Anyway, when I hear back or get a replacement I'll be sure to post if this solved the problem. Random lockups can be a bear to run down since everything from software to hardware can be a possible suspect. Just use patience, start with the basics such as virus and malware checks, OS integrity, hard disk stability and integrity, and start ruling out various hardware by either swapping out to other systems if possible or adding appropriate parts if you have them available. If it is non-essential like a CD-ROM or DVD, just disconnect it. Also check the specs if you can on recommended power supplies for your system since adding a lot of peripherals like high end video cards can eat up the wattage. If all else fails, post here. The guys (sorry, and gals) here at whatthetech.com are great and can really provide valuable input in other directions to look and things to try. In this case I was right (I think) from the beginning, but I didn't realize that the board had a three year limited warranty until I googled the motherboard part number. Sure wish I had tried THAT first . Anyway, thanks again to all who posted. I really did appreciate the moral support as well as the suggestions. Best Regards Ravius

Sorry, forgot to mention one important piece of the puzzle that may be applicable to others with similar situations. I had my friend call his electric utility after he told me that occasionally the lights dimmed or appliances seemed to slow down, and they came out and monitored his house with instruments to record power issues. The company ended up replacing the transformer on the pole. If lights dim and flicker occasionally or other such symptoms, many utility companies will run a power check to make sure it is not their side of the service. Obviously this will possibly vary by state or company as far as their checking, but in my experience many seemingly random or strange hardware failures can often be linked back to supply side power issues. A really decent UPS can help because the battery will filter the power for consumer electronics such as computers, and line conditioners can also work although I prefer the UPS because of the ability to control power downs. Power issues can also play havoc with equipment other than delicate electronics such as compressors in refrigerators and air conditioners, and other household appliances. Just thought I'd add this because I have seen this often enough that I usually quiz a client about their business or home electric supply such as lights dimming when there are random hardware failures or loss of configuration info. I'm not talking about brownouts, but general every day power issues due to things such as transformers on the poles and industrial interference on lines. Best Regards Ravius