12 replies to this topic

[tweeks024]

Just put together a new build, I'm pretty much a novice (i fix much simpler computers for work but I know little about high-end components) EVGA 780i mb Intel Core 2 Duo, 3.0 Palit 9600gt Sonic 512mb pcie-2 Dlink DWL-G550 wireless card 2x2gb OCZ gold 6400 Lite-On DVD burner Lite-on Blu Ray Rom drive Coolmaster Cosmos Case OCZ 700w power supply When it starts up it seems fine, i have got up to 40% through installing windows xp 32bit, the computer loses power. This also happened once while i was looking around in the BIOS so i dont think its Windows. I've tried using only 1 ram stick, and both of them, also I've swtiched them. I've tried using both optical drives to install. I dont think its the hd's b/c usually it crashes before I can even start to format one. This ram is supposed to run at 2.0volts, which i set in the BIOS. Also I tried removing the wireless card, just cause i was out of ideas but had the same problem. I used the cpu cooler that came with the processor, I didnt think it would be overheating when trying to install windows though, It does crash at different points so maybe it is overheating. If i cant figure it out I'm gonna try a Zalman 9500A. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks a bunch.

Edited by tweeks024, 30 March 2008 - 05:18 PM.

[Digerati]

This could be a number of things - RAM, motherboard, heat, PSU - My first guess would be RAM. That said, you should not have to change anything in the BIOS if your BIOS/motherboard is compatible with your RAM. Is this RAM recommended for your board by the motherboard maker? I would reset the BIOS and leave all detection settings on "Auto". You can test your RAM using one of the following programs. Both require you to create and boot to a bootable floppy disk or CD to run the diagnostics. Using the floppy method is generally easier and yet another reason I still include floppy drives in all my new PC builds. However, the CD method is just as effective at detecting RAM problems. Allow the diagnostics to run for several passes or even overnight. You should have no reported errors.

Windows Memory Diagnostic - see the easy to follow instructions under Quick Start Information.
or
MemTest86+ (for more advanced users) - an excellent how-to guide is available here.

That said, it could be heat at this point too. You said you used the stock cooler - that's fine. Did you use TIM - thermal interface material? Typically, retail CPU and HSFs come with a thermal pad. Not the best but better than nothing.

The fact you have a stock cooler tells me you bought a "retail" version of the CPU - that's fine too because the Retail version is guaranteed for 3 years vs 1 for the OEM, and yours came with a heat sink fan assembly too. You should not have to replace your fan for normal operations. The stock coolers from both Intel and AMD are excellent coolers, more than adequate to keep a CPU cooled under some pretty heavy duty conditions. They are not the quietest, but not the loudest by any means either. Perhaps more importantly, understand if you use anything but stock coolers on CPUs that come with coolers, you void the warranty! So you would be wise to just keep using what you are using, at least until you figure this out.

It does not sound like hardware shorting out, but just to be certain, are you 100% certain you have no extra standoffs under the motherboard? Cases are designed to hold 1000s of boards - they normally have more mounting holes than the motherboards do. Extra brass standoffs under motherboards are not a good thing.

I would swap in a different PSU - eliminate yours from the equation. And make sure you have connected all necessary power connections to the motherboard and graphics cards - some boards and cards require more than one connection - check your manual.

If still no good, I would reassemble the computer outside the case with no drives and try again.

[DaChew]

bump the mem voltage to 2.1 volts and check the cas settings

[tweeks024]

It was 2 standoffs I had put in b/c i didnt pay enough attention....Thanks for the advice, your a life saver Also it ran fine with the normal bios ram settings but i changed to what is recommended by the ram. 5-5-5-18 instead of 6-6-6-18 and 2.1v instead of 1.85...any thoughts on this?

[DaChew]

Unless you start to overclock and push the core frequency a lot higher, the lower cas settings don't give more than a few % performance increase with current Intel processors, their architecture includes a longer memory pipeline to compensate for the memory controller being off die(vs amd with the controller onboard/short pipeline) At high overclock, lower cas settings are critical and even the type of chip used to make the memory/ micron d6? auto settings for memory in bios hasn't seemed to work very well these last few years

Edited by DaChew, 01 April 2008 - 07:20 AM.

[Digerati]

It was 2 standoffs I had put in b/c i didnt pay enough attention....Thanks for the advice, your a life saver

You are welcome. Consider yourself lucky. You obviously did not short any damaging voltages on to sensitive circuits or else that could have been new motherboard time, at your expense. In some situations, the CPU and RAM have been taken out too.

auto settings for memory in bios hasn't seemed to work very well these last few years

Huh? I am afraid I have to strongly disagree. It is my experience that if homework is done and RAM recommended by the motherboard maker is used, auto-settings have worked perfectly every time - setting times for rock-solid, stable, performance. I admit I have limited experience, as I tend to limit my builds to Gigabyte boards by choice, but recent builds also included systems with ASUS, DFI, ABIT, and Foxconn motherboards, and none had problems. I also admit, since the Intel Core 2 Duos, I've built no AMD systems, but again, motherboards failing to configure with recommended RAM is not a common problem or trend I've seen in my experiences, nor that I have read anywhere. Please post some references.

Newegg lists over 400 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM modules from more than 20 RAM makers. It is unreasonable to expect every one will work perfectly in every possible combination with the nearly 400 Intel and AMD motherboards Newegg lists that support all those 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM modules. That's millions of combinations, just from Newegg stock.

EVGA Supported Memory

I do not recommend overclocking in general - but especially not during the first couple days of a brand new build - not until you have loaded up all your applications, security defenses, network, etc. When certain you have 100% stability at default settings, then you can risk voiding your warranties.

Remember, manufacturers don't rarely test and don't "burn-in" their products anymore, as doing so cost more than shipping right away and letting their customers be the guinea pigs instead.

[DaChew]

Also it ran fine with the normal bios ram settings but i changed to what is recommended by the ram. 5-5-5-18 instead of 6-6-6-18 and 2.1v instead of 1.85...any thoughts on this?

the fact that the longer pipeline was more forgiving does not change the way his auto settings configured his premium ram

when you couple this effect with amd's onboard controller the problem becomes critical

I have seen the same problem with gigabyte boards and premium gaming memory

Premium memory is overclocked by design already, hence the higher voltages, better heat sinks and lower cas settings

Don't criticize overclockers just because they take this beyond the average or normal, why do you think premium mobo manufacturers are adding so many tweakable features to boards?

My crucial ballistix ddr ram and asus mobo are a good example of this, I have to set everything manually to get the ram to run at specs/stock, auto doesn't work.

Memory Bus 249.98 MHz

CPU Cache:
L1 Code Cache 64 KB (Parity)
L1 Data Cache 64 KB (ECC)
L2 Cache 512 KB (On-Die, ECC, Full-Speed)

Motherboard Properties:
Motherboard ID 63-1408-000001-00101111-063005-K8T800P$A0036001_BIOS DATE: 06/30/05 17:34:14 VER: 08.00.09
Motherboard Name Asus A8V Deluxe (5 PCI, 1 AGP, 4 DDR DIMM, Audio, Gigabit LAN, IEEE-1394)

Chipset Properties:
Motherboard Chipset VIA K8T800Pro, AMD Hammer
Memory Timings 2.5-4-4-10 (CL-RCD-RP-RAS)
Command Rate (CR) 1T

SPD Memory Modules:
DIMM1: Micron Tech. 256 MB PC4000 DDR SDRAM (2.5-4-4-10 @ 250 MHz) (2.0-3-3-8 @ 200 MHz)
DIMM2: Micron Tech. 256 MB PC4000 DDR SDRAM (2.5-4-4-10 @ 250 MHz) (2.0-3-3-8 @ 200 MHz)

solid as a rock for 2 1/2 years and still at the top of latency with everest

[Digerati]

Don't criticize overclockers

Once again, DaChew, you take an alternative opinion as a personal attack or criticism of you. The expression of such insecurity is an immature and unprofessional approach in an open discussion on a professional site, such as WTT. I say once more, do NOT twist my words around again! It is just not cool, Dude! I NEVER criticized overclockers! If you are going to quote me, quote me. I said, "I do not recommend overclocking".

...just because they take this beyond the average or normal

Feculent blather! Come on! That's pure fabrication from your mind, not mine! And of no contribution to the post!

why do you think premium mobo manufacturers are adding so many tweakable features to boards?

Good question!

Because if ASUS does not build it in their boards, Gigabyte will. If not Gigabyte, MSI. BUT, understand the fine print. Gigabyte will not replace a blown CPU, overheated RAM, or fried graphics card. And if an overclocked and overheated CPU distorts the CPU socket (as can occur with processors that run hot for long periods of time), or takes out the chipset, neither Intel or AMD will pay for a new board.

AMD and Intel both build overhead in their CPUs - that does not mean you can overclock it and it will be covered under warranty. In fact, read the warranties and see if "abnormal voltages" are covered.

If you want to overclock, that's fine and your business. But understand that overclocking is a hobby, an enthusiasts pipe-dream - similar to how the absolute silent, but cool running PC is to the HTPC enthusiasts. If you overclock, do it right, understand the consequences if things go wrong. They can be catastrophic, and very costly. And never overclock a production machine - that is one used for critical work, school, home or personal finances - unless you are willing to lose everything, or at least, have a current backup of your critical data.

My crucial ballistix ddr ram and asus mobo are a good example of this

Hmmm, who criticized me for using my own experiences as an average user? Oh yeah, you, DaChew! Can't have it both ways, Bub!

Now I recommend we move on, but not forget that expressing a different opinion, or even disagreeing with ones facts, is within ones rights, does not constitute or justify making it personal, or rationalize obfuscating the truth by presenting a false representation of another's comments. Not only not cool, but wrong.

I apologize for the distraction, Tweeks.

[DaChew]

I would reset the BIOS and leave all detection settings on "Auto".

with his ram I felt this was wrong

his specs call for 2.1 volts not 1.8 volts

premium ram often takes manual settings in bios to work right, I suggest they are set right before even loading the OS

let's try to keep this on a higher plane

Edited by DaChew, 01 April 2008 - 01:06 PM.

[DaChew]

this voltage problem is well documented

http://www.tomshardw...nel-bios-update

I wrote to Gigabyte tech support and he advised me that the default DDR2 voltage is 1.8V for current BIOS versions, but my memory is rated for 2.00-2.10V. All I had to do was increase the DDR2 voltage by +.2 in the BIOS M.I.T.

[Digerati]

I would reset the BIOS and leave all detection settings on "Auto".

with his ram I felt this was wrong

And yet

it ran fine with the normal bios ram settings

his specs call for 2.1 volts not 1.8 volts

His RAM calls for 1.8V!!! 2.1 is the limit - it does not mean you, or it, must run at that.

premium ram often takes manual settings in bios to work right,

I am sorry DaChew, but a better grasp of the facts is needed here. OCZ Gold PC2 6400 is great RAM, but at $100 ($63 with rebate) for 4Gb, I would not qualify it as premium or special, not even by OCZ standards.

I suggest they are set right before even loading the OS

Me too - considering you need too boot to and install from the installation disk on a stable platform, so you can format and partition the drives before even starting the OS load - and well AFTER the RAM has passed the RAM test phase of the POST, I agree, you need a stable platform, which these components do well.

The facts are this:

This is new hardware, still under warranty. Is the risk of voiding the warranty one tweeks is willing to take? Only Tweeks can decide.
The RAM and motherboard work, as advertised, in auto-mode.
You can change the timings and you may achieve greater performance. You will affect temperatures and you may change cooling requirments.
Overclocking affects more than just the targeted component.
Damage that can be attributed to overclocking, improper voltages, or inadeqate cooling is not covered by warranty.

Whether any of those facts matter to you (or me) DaChew, it does not matter. What matters to Tweeks is what's important, and an informed decision can only occur when all the facts, and only the real facts, are known. Once informed, if potential losses don't warrant more caution, have fun. For all reading, just remember, anything that plugs into the wall, can kill.

let's try to keep this on a higher plane

Right. Don't twist other's words around and we'll be fine. And if your facts are challenged, don't take it personal. Simply because there are bad guys that come to these forums and intentially provide misleading or even harmful suggestions, expect a consciencious poster to challenge you!!!

Post substantiating facts, accept you may be wrong, and always remember there's is more to learn in IT, and here at WTT.

[Digerati]

Thanks for the update, but I'm not sure a single forum post is considered "well documented" and I note in that link the problem occurred after a BIOS update, so it is hard to tell what went wrong in that case. In any event, I concede RAM timings is something to look at in the event you start getting BSODs after a BIOS update.

[DaChew]

http://www.newegg.co...e...alse&Page=2

read the reviews and voltage problems

personally I prefer crucial premium ram, but you have to have a motherboard that will adjust the voltage up

cas 4 ram at 800 is even harder to set in bios

I have several posters that didn't crash until they were well into a video transcode after upgrading their ram with premium replacements

Edited by DaChew, 01 April 2008 - 03:04 PM.