95 replies to this topic

[terry1966]

Oh wait....

A chicken doesn't have a "definition". It is a name. Therefore a "chicken" didn't exist until someone called the funny bird by the name... chicken. It is highly unlikely that someone said... "I'm going to call whatever hatches from that egg - chicken!"

So... I'm going back to the chicken came first.

just because the chicken didn't have the name chicken before someone called it that, doesn't mean it never existed in reality tho does it?
so the egg must of come first before the soon to be called mutated bird we now know as a chicken could be hatched from it. yes? no?



and why couldn't god have made the big bang in the first place anyway to start the creation of everything that exists?

Edited by terry1966, 09 May 2011 - 11:12 PM.

[Tomk]

Again... improper equations give meaningless answers.

pi is exact. It is a true and pure relationship. However, dimensions... to use your words, are approximations. There is no such thing as a "perfect" measurement. Measurements can only be taken to factors of precision. Therefore mathematics has what is known as significant digits. So... to answer your question..the circumference of a 10 cm circle is 31 cm. Because math is pure logic... it doesn't care how you feel about the result. It is what it is. The solution of a given equation will never change. If you change the equation, you may get a different answer... but it will always be the correct solution for that equation.

Example. If you had asked what is the circumference of a 10.00 cm diameter circle, then answer would be 31.42 cm. If, however, wanted the circumference of a circle with a diameter greater than 9 cm but less than 11 cm.... you would have defined a 10 cm diameter and the answer would be 30 cm- exactly. No probabilities involved. Always exactly one unchanging answer to every equation.

In summary... being pure and perfect logic, math is pure and perfect. It doesn't care about your world view, philosophy, likes or dislikes... it is always what it is and not subject to any "external" influences. People may not like it but math doesn't care. You have been striving to show pi as something "unknown". It isn't. it is a true and pure ratio. I'm believing you are basing your belief upon the fact that from time to time someone factors pi to another place. Remember how I said that applying logic to faulty assumptions will result in incorrect conclusions? You seem to keep trying to show that pi defines circumference. It does not... the relationship between the circumference and the diameter of a circle define pi. The only way to calculate pi to additional precision... is to be able to determine the diameter and the circumference of a circle with greater precision. pi doesn't change - the ability to measure to greater precision is discovered. With the question you posed... you were attempting to corrupt logic by not understanding the question you asked. Math doesn't care if you are wrong. It will continue to be what it is and give you a solution to the equation offered. And it won't care if you try to interpret it as something else.

I've tried to logically explain it. I doubt that it will make any sense to you. A week or two ago you insisted that shape is defined by dimensions... when by definition a shape is not constrained by dimension because that is a function of scale. A few months ago you insisted that Linux cannot be contaminated by malware... when the reality is that it has and can be. Again, if facts, truth, logic and reality don't exist... no datum point exists for debate.

[terry1966]

Again... improper equations give meaningless answers.

pi is exact. It is a true and pure relationship. However, dimensions... to use your words, are approximations. There is no such thing as a "perfect" measurement. Measurements can only be taken to factors of precision. Therefore mathematics has what is known as significant digits. So... to answer your question..the circumference of a 10 cm circle is 31 cm. Because math is pure logic... it doesn't care how you feel about the result. It is what it is. The solution of a given equation will never change. If you change the equation, you may get a different answer... but it will always be the correct solution for that equation.

Example. If you had asked what is the circumference of a 10.00 cm diameter circle, then answer would be 31.42 cm. If, however, wanted the circumference of a circle with a diameter greater than 9 cm but less than 11 cm.... you would have defined a 10 cm diameter and the answer would be 30 cm- exactly. No probabilities involved. Always exactly one unchanging answer to every equation.

In summary... being pure and perfect logic, math is pure and perfect. It doesn't care about your world view, philosophy, likes or dislikes... it is always what it is and not subject to any "external" influences. People may not like it but math doesn't care. You have been striving to show pi as something "unknown". It isn't. it is a true and pure ratio. I'm believing you are basing your belief upon the fact that from time to time someone factors pi to another place. Remember how I said that applying logic to faulty assumptions will result in incorrect conclusions? You seem to keep trying to show that pi defines circumference. It does not... the relationship between the circumference and the diameter of a circle define pi. The only way to calculate pi to additional precision... is to be able to determine the diameter and the circumference of a circle with greater precision. pi doesn't change - the ability to measure to greater precision is discovered. With the question you posed... you were attempting to corrupt logic by not understanding the question you asked. Math doesn't care if you are wrong. It will continue to be what it is and give you a solution to the equation offered. And it won't care if you try to interpret it as something else.

I've tried to logically explain it. I doubt that it will make any sense to you. A week or two ago you insisted that shape is defined by dimensions... when by definition a shape is not constrained by dimension because that is a function of scale. A few months ago you insisted that Linux cannot be contaminated by malware... when the reality is that it has and can be. Again, if facts, truth, logic and reality don't exist... no datum point exists for debate.

the question was give me the exact circumfrence of a 10cm diameter circle and you couldn't, 31cm is not the exact circumference, it's an approximation with the data you used in the equation, ie:- pi to 1 decimal place.

no i'm not saying pi defines circumfrence what i said was any equation that relies on pi as a constant is not "pure and perfect".

not disagreeing with you about maths equations/formula being perfect and logical,
just your assumtion that they prove anything and that they only give one answer, the truth is the same equation will give you as many answers that you put the data into them for, and the accuracy of the answer returned is totally dependant on the accuracy of said data.
as you've rightly stated the data depends on the accuracy with which we can measure. so if we can't measure exactly then the equations can not give us exact answers so therefore can only give us approximations and probabilities.

A week or two ago you insisted that shape is defined by dimensions

actually no i never, i was trying to point out to you using your words and arguments that "same shape", if same means identical then the shapes(whatever they are or how you define/measure them) must be identical which would include area taken up by them, but if same meant similar then just how similar is similar for an answer to be correct?

A few months ago you insisted that Linux cannot be contaminated by malware... when the reality is that it has and can be. Again, if facts, truth, logic and reality don't exist... no datum point exists for debate.

again no i didn't, i stated it couldn't be infected with a drive by virus(actually tongue in cheek i said it was virus proof) which it can't as far as i'm aware. malware is not the same as saying virus, virus is a specific type of malware, a virus to survive needs to infect and spread faster than it is killed off in the wild, which again as far as i know it cannot do on a linux machine, more than willing to be proved wrong tho if there is any.

Edited by terry1966, 10 May 2011 - 02:35 AM.

[Nahumi]

Actually Pi equals 4...

http://milesmathis.com/pi.html

Okay, obviously Pi doesn't equal 4, but the article above by Miles Mathis proves that logic is neither true or objective. You have to believe that your logic is true, otherwise it wouldn't be "logical". The other thing this shows is that logic is deeply personal. How many times have you completed an algebraic equation believing that it was correct, only to find out that it wasn't? For the time that you believed it was correct, to you it seemed like sound "logic".

We normally don't notice the differences in our personal "logics" because they normally tend to be similar. And even when they're not, there's a lot of debate and argument over who's right and wrong. It's this debate, which in itself is an entirely social act rather than a mathematical act, which defines which "logic" or answer is correct. This is the same when your teacher tells you're wrong. You automatically believe and trust a figure of authority, so when you take that away you could end up with two opposing "logics" existing at the same time.

So in the end, all that Quantum Physics actually is, is a general consensus of the "correct logic", rather than being an objective truth.

Edited by Nahumi, 10 May 2011 - 01:18 AM.

[Lee]

malware is not the same as a virus

Your wrong there Terry

Malware is just an (umbrella) name that describes ALL malicious software, including Viruses. So yes, a Virus is Malware .

Cheers,
Lee

[Lee]

So in the end, all that Quantum Physics actually is, is a general consensus of the "correct logic", rather than being an objective truth.

Well put Nahumi, an objective "truth" cannot possibly exist (Kurt Godel again), only a subjective one.

I will say one thing though regarding physics, it is coming far closer to proving the existence of God than vis-a-vis and I'm all for it (the big bang is the best example that leans towards a God, as it defies any other scientific explanation or solid theory that excludes a God). How in the heck can everything be created from nothing (except by a God maybe)?
All physicists are finally stumped on that one, well and truly

See "The Mind of God" by Paul Davies (physicist, cosmologist and astrobiologis) http://en.wikipedia....The_Mind_of_God

I read this book about 15yrs ago. and it was quite a fascinating read. Written in layman's terms too.

Cheers,
Lee

Edited by Lee, 10 May 2011 - 02:27 AM.

[terry1966]

malware is not the same as a virus

Your wrong there Terry

Malware is just an (umbrella) name that describes ALL malicious software, including Viruses. So yes, a Virus is Malware .

Cheers,
Lee

so i'm not wrong.

a virus is one type of malware, but a virus is not an umbrella.

or malware as a whole.

and i made another edit :-

malware is not the same as saying virus, virus is a specific type of malware

i wish i could explain things as well as nahumi, tomk and the rest of you tho.
but i do have fun.

Edited by terry1966, 10 May 2011 - 02:37 AM.

[Jimbo1]

Reason for Edit:

Section 3. What the Tech Support Forum Rules, Policies and Disclaimers

• Religious and political messages are not permitted, including signatures.

Jimbo1

Guess I did not see that in the rules and close to border line message.

Edited by Jimbo1, 11 May 2011 - 09:21 AM.

[chrissy72]

Boys boys boys! Hasnt anybody ever told you never to "debate" politics or religion.

At the end of the day, in a free and civilised society, everybody has the right to believe what they wish to believe. (As long as its not harming anybody of course!)

Myself, I believe as long as you are a good person and do right by your fellow man (treat others as you wish to be treated) then your religious beliefs should not matter, in this life or whatever may or may not be beyond.

My head is spinning to how Jimbo's original question about a tree falling in the woods has ended up in a discussion about eggs and chooks, and ended with the age old scientific theories vs religion debate.

But then again, I did start it in a way I guess with saying that someone would always hear the tree falling as god is always around to see and hear everything.
This does not say that I am a believer or not, but it was just a suggestion to Jimbo as to a simple explanation to a 5year olds question at church.

I hope i havnt offended anybody, cos that was not my intention

EDIT

Boys boys boys! Hasnt anybody ever told you never to "debate" politics or religion.

Haa haa haa spoken like a true mother there lol.

Edited by chrissy72, 10 May 2011 - 10:01 AM.

[Lee]

God was brought up, but not religion or politics.

I hope i havnt offended anybody, cos that was not my intention

No, not at all Chrissy

Cheers,
Lee

PS. In any debate, God, Hitler or both will eventually come into it (that's a 78% fact).

[Tomk]

@Chrissy, I'm not offended yet... but I might be if you don't tell me what a "chooks" is. Is that something like a chicken?

[Elizabeth Clare]

Boys boys boys! Hasnt anybody ever told you never to "debate" politics or religion.

Who ever said this must have been raised in a dictatorship where such discussions would be illegal and if discovered would result in incarceration... or worse.

I applaud those participating in this thread.
Shortly after joining WTT I wondered if perhaps there existed here members of what some circles refer to as the "top 3%" of the approx. 6.4 billion world population whose characteristics include high intelligence(s) level(s) in one or more areas. These are the deep thinkers and highly skilled doers of this world. The group is a conglomerate set of yet-to-be identified individuals that are interested and/or able to successfully theorize. practice, teach, learn, invent anew, appreciate and utilize (all or in-part) findings of the past and/or apply highly complex concepts, strategies and applications. These are the folks who, in this day and age, would be classified by educators as the "gifted and talented". I have been searching for fellowship among members of this unidentified group for 20 years.

At the end of the day, in a free and civilised society, everybody has the right to believe what they wish to believe. (As long as its not harming anybody of course!)

Ob wohl! However, heathy and respectful debate can only deepen, fortify, clarify and/or rectify one's understanding and there is an important difference between "healthy debates" and "hot-headed arguments". Our beliefs are a set of ideas or thoughts based on a set of "assumptions". Quite often, due to misunderstandings, miscommunications or other reasons, these "assumptions" may have developed from premises and/or perceptions that are no longer accurate, or were not even accurate at the time they were developed. These are called "false assumptions".

False assumptions are very dangerous and insidiously cause much harm and distruction to what otherwise might be very healthy relationships. Once identified, validated and reconcilled to the satisfaction of one's own mind through healthy debate between reasonable, responsible, knowledgeable and caring persons - great benefit(s) actualize for all concerned. It's one of the recipes for world peace and scientific discovery and invention.

Myself, I believe as long as you are a good person and do right by your fellow man (treat others as you wish to be treated) then your religious beliefs should not matter, in this life or whatever may or may not be beyond.

If your religious beliefs preclude being a good person, doing right by your fellow man, treating others as you wish to be treated, AND/OR any differences of opinion as to the definitions of "good", "right", "person", "fellow man", "treatment of self & others", "life" ~ religious beliefs DO matter. Perhaps the debate might be about "how" to get there and less about where we'd like to go... or... ? In my opinion, I feel any such good debates are worth having.

There is a difference between "religion" and "faith". If that which you believe (your faith) includes that you find value in the quest to be a good person and do right by your fellow man AND you wish to seek and apply this belief to your life, you may choose to discover ways to do this on your own, or you may decide that to "re-invent-the-entire-wheel" would take too long and would be too difficult. Religions were invented by groups of people who share the same "faith" or "beliefs" and come together in a fashion so to develop ways of life, norms and practices to enhance, make easier, and offer tools or support to help to allow those practicing such religion(s) to attain their goals to live whatever that particular community decides is a "good" life. Over time, when changes in specific religious practices came into question many - if not most - religions developed "sub-sets" of the "umbrella" religion, to include "traditionalist", "conservative", "progressive" or "libral" or anything in between. In questions of "core religious belief", however, the resulting "schism" typically evolves into the formation of a new religious entity.

FYI There was a period of time in China, however, where any religious activites whatsoever were banned and unlawful (began sometime in the 60's). That has since changed, however (I believe in the late 70's).

I believe it is right and proper to regularly question things, if one is a seeker of Truth. I also firmly believe that one's actions are based on one's core belief (Faith) and if one is true to this, may have found a religion that best helps them to live out this core belief.

My head is spinning to how Jimbo's original question about a tree falling in the woods has ended up in a discussion about eggs and chooks, and ended with the age old scientific theories vs religion debate.

But then again, I did start it in a way I guess with saying that someone would always hear the tree falling as god is always around to see and hear everything.
This does not say that I am a believer or not, but it was just a suggestion to Jimbo as to a simple explanation to a 5year olds question at church.

I think that since the "tree falls" question was so elegantly addressed by everyone to what seems to have been to everyone's satisfaction, the "egg chicken" question was a natural evolution as it is another "age old" debate that perhaps we all here can shed some light on - for better or worse.

Speaking of "evolution" I think that is where the answer lies. I think that there at one time was a mutation due to environmental or perhaps other circumstances. The mutation was so strong that it survived embrionic stages without being spontaneously aborted and resulted in a hatched female chick that survived to adulthood. A chicken is an adult female bird - the first of which needed to be an adult (able to make eggs), female AND identified as such by a human being who named and classified it as such. The naming and identification of the first chicken, could only occur after passing the "evolutionary" tests of conception, embryonic stages, hatching, "chickhood", "chickpuberty" to adulthood before even qualifying to be called a "chicken". It is for these reasons that I submit the answer to the "egg/chicken" question is:

CHICKEN

I hope i havnt offended anybody, cos that was not my intention

chrissy72! I personally find your posts very valuable and insightful. No offense taken on my part!

EDIT

Boys boys boys! Hasnt anybody ever told you never to "debate" politics or religion.

Haa haa haa spoken like a true mother there lol.

Happy Belated Mother's Day!!

[terry1966]

top 3%???

i'm just happy if i come in the top 75%...

but i will agree with you, Elizabeth Clare, there are some very very intelligent(you included) people here on this site.
it is also my pleasure to be allowed to mix and learn with/from them.

ok, i will admit my intelligence is slightly above average if you believe iq tests actually prove anything,
but not enough to be classified as anything other than average in my opinion, so the 75% was an exaggeration,

i'm happy to be in the top 50%

chooks

= chickens : chook = a chicken.
must admit i haven't heard the word myself in years.

Edited by terry1966, 10 May 2011 - 02:35 PM.

[Lee]

= chickens : chook = a chicken.
must admit i haven't heard the word myself in years.

Come to Oz mate, it's all Chooks and no Chickens here

[attachment=10474:ScreenClip000018.jpg]

So finally, what did come first, the chicken or the egg (it's called a "causality dilemma") ?
"To ancient philosophers, the question about the first chicken or egg also evoked the questions of how life and the universe in general began" (wiki).

British scientists solved the mystery
http://www.msnbc.msn...chicken-or-egg/

"The scientists found that a protein found only in a chicken's ovaries is necessary for the formation of the egg.
The egg can therefore only exist if it has been created inside a chicken".

The Chicken had to have come first (no word as yet from where the chicken came from)

Cheers,
Lee

[terry1966]

"The scientists found that a protein found only in a chicken's ovaries is necessary for the formation of the egg.
The egg can therefore only exist if it has been created inside a chicken".

The Chicken had to have come first (no word as yet from where the chicken came from)

actually no that proves nothing, because to be true proof only chickens must lay eggs in the first place, but they don't, so it is possible the egg came first from a different type of bird/reptile but the embryo inside that egg mutated into a chicken.

therefore the egg was first.

what it might prove tho is that the chicken came before a chickens egg...

but the question didn't specify what type of egg it was tho did it..