The 2gb/4gb Problem Again!

I would be very grateful if someone could tell me what to do about these 'problems'….I have studied as many topics wherever I can find them, but none actually spell out in simple terms what I actually have to do….And…there are so many differences of opinion, I'm lost. Before I explain the problems, please note that I do heavy demand and big file size photoshop stuff. Microsoft Windows XP Professional SP2 AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+ Corsair CM2X1024-6400 x 4 DDR2 SDRAM Memory Speed DDR2-800 (400 MHz) Timings: @ 400 MHz 5.0-5-5-18 (CL-RCD-RP-RAS) @ 270 MHz 4.0-4-4-13 (CL-RCD-RP-RAS) CPU cache: L1 Code Cache 64 KB L1 Data Cache 64 KB L2 Cache 512 KB (Asynchronous) Motherboard Chipset ULi/ALi M1697, AMD Hammer Motherboard Asrock AM2XLI-eSATA NVidia 7600GT 256mb graphics I very carefully installed identical 2GB DDR2 memory adding to the 2GB I already have. The ***** BIOS re-set itself (a subject beyond me!) and switched me from SATA to RAID, plus several other things (like 'safely remove hardware' for the hard drives which has now gone due to switching back to SATA). Fortunately the PC builder retained details of my PC and we appear to have re-set the BIOS OK…..but….. …as would seem to be the issue with many 4GB memory installations, the BIOS says 4GB present, as does Everest, Belarc and CPU-z….but Everest and Belarc also say that only 3GB is available for use (in fact Everest says that only 2560MB is 'Free') This is the same as System/Properties in Windows, which is showing 3GB.(plus Physical Address Extension underneath). In Msinfo32 Windows sees the 4GB! Plus, having altered the Paging File settings from Custom to System Managed, it shows 2G approx Min; 4G approx recommended (1.5 x 3???); but…wait for it…. Actually apportioned 6G Approx, (which = 1.5 x 3)…Therefore Windows knows it is there. I understand there are 'switches' such as /3GB and PAE which can be implemeted in the boot.ini file……OK, I know where to get to it and OK, it is a text file, but what do I actually do/type, and is it worth it?…Even more…IS IT SAFE?!!! Additionally, there appears to be a possible issue with regard to the memory timings which were showing in Everest as 400Mhz and 270Mhz. Even though we altered the memory speed in the BIOS to 800Mhz (I think), the Everest reading for timings remains the same 400 and 270???? At the moment I don't think the PC is functioning any faster with the additional RAM or settings changes. From CPU-z: Memory Tab: Frequency 400Mhz FSB DRAM CPU/6 CAS Latency 5.0 clocks RAS to CAS Delay 5 clocks RAS Precharge 5 clocks Cycle time (Tras) 12 clocks Bank Cycle Time (Trc) 23 clocks Command Rate 2T SPD Tab: Frequency 270Mhz 400Mhz CAS Latency 4.0 5.0 RAS to CAS 4 5 RAS Precharge 4 5 Tras 13 18 Trc 15 22 All four slots read the same 400Mhz Bandwidth, but I recall someone saying to me perhaps it is a voltage issue and I need to drop it down a bit? To give a clue as to what I find bad: Recording Music on Magix Cleaning Lab via Line In at the same time as Burning a DVD RW with Nero….very slow opening of anything else, say Int Explorer 7. Also, if I try just copying all docs and files from one HDD to another HDD as a backup, other things are slow to open (say, Control Panel) Would anyone care to comment? Bear in mind although it might look as though I know what I'm doing……….. Thanks. D

Hi,
Sorry to hear of the problems with your computer.
I think its best to deal with one thing at a time so lets address the apparent discrepancy between installed RAM (4GB) and indicated RAM (3GB).
Windows XP (64 bit version) can easily handle in excess of 4GB of RAM, whilst the 32 bit version (that most folks have) is limited to an absolute max of 4GB and will commonly indicate 3GB.

The conclusion from this is that you are using Windows XP 32 bit operating system.

You will need to do some more detective work on the BIOS settins and Memory timings and I dont think I can help you there as each machine is likely to need its own settings.

On the question of your comment that:
At the moment I don't think the PC is functioning any faster with the additional RAM
This would appear to be normal, for most users as 2GB usually provides excellent performance and the extra RAM although useful in certain circumstances would not offer any significant extra speed in most cases.
Regards
paws

Hi….Thanks for the response…. I have just run full tests with PCPitstop and their results appear to show that I have an excellent set-up, but I'm not convinced! Alongside (as near as d……..t) this PC is a 6 or 7 year old eMachines 2.3 Celeron. It has only ever had a HDD failure (in the last year) and it got a 512RAM upgrade at the same time……Apart from some usual niggles that is all that has ever happened……..but, it is very nearly as quick as the AMD that this topic is about, excepting on programs such as photoshop. The reason for the 4G in the AMD was down to the massive photoshop files that are generated and the speed issues that developed with them….I assumed (underline that) that giving the PC more RAM, it would ease off on the Page File……whether it has or not, I am too thick to know where to look, but I don't think it has. Thanks D.

Here's some info from Microsoft about pagefile.sys, and a short blurb from another source that makes good sense but is not one of the resource sites that I regularly rely upon. (in other words, buyer beware and think it through before making decisions)

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?…kb;en-us;555223
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/SupportCD/XPMyths.html <– Scroll down about 1/4 of this very long page

Myth - "Disabling the Paging File improves performance."

Reality - "You gain no performance improvement by turning off the Paging File. When certain applications start, they allocate a huge amount of memory (hundreds of megabytes typically set aside in virtual memory) even though they might not use it. If no paging file (pagefile.sys) is present, a memory-hogging application can quickly use a large chunk of RAM. Even worse, just a few such programs can bring a machine loaded with memory to a halt. Some applications (e.g., Adobe Photoshop) will display warnings on startup if no paging file is present." - Source

"In modern operating systems, including Windows, application programs and many system processes always reference memory using virtual memory addresses which are automatically translated to real (RAM) addresses by the hardware. Only core parts of the operating system kernel bypass this address translation and use real memory addresses directly. All processes (e.g. application executables) running under 32 bit Windows gets virtual memory addresses (a Virtual Address Space) going from 0 to 4,294,967,295 (2*32-1 = 4 GB), no matter how much RAM is actually installed on the computer. In the default Windows OS configuration, 2 GB of this virtual address space are designated for each process' private use and the other 2 GB are shared between all processes and the operating system. RAM is a limited resource, whereas virtual memory is, for most practical purposes, unlimited. There can be a large number of processes each with its own 2 GB of private virtual address space. When the memory in use by all the existing processes exceeds the amount of RAM available, the operating system will move pages (4 KB pieces) of one or more virtual address spaces to the computer's hard disk, thus freeing that RAM frame for other uses. In Windows systems, these "paged out" pages are stored in one or more files called pagefile.sys in the root of a partition. Virtual Memory is always in use, even when the memory required by all running processes does not exceed the amount of RAM installed on the system."

Hi, following up on this, when using photoshop, especially if you have a large number of "undos", you will need a lot of RAM to service your scratch file, however you already have a large amount of RAM so you need not worry. The slowdown when multitasking is normal and most experts would advise you not to run music recording at the same time as burning a DVD, in fact a lot of very experienced folk would not recommend doing anything at all whilst burning a DVD! When you say that whilst making a backup of documents opening of Control Panel is slow, this is to be expected. Although you may find that you have some configuration issues that are less than optimum (your PCPitstop report seems to indicate that most things are OK. Are you sure that your expectations of your new machine are in line with its capabilities? You have a good, powerful machine, and it should perform well, but the issues you describe are exactly what would be expected of such a machine. Your 2.3 Celeron with 512MB of RAM is obviously not as powerful as your new "flying machine" but apart from the more intensive image manipulations, video work and gaming that your new machine would be more suited for, would provide almost as good performance for less mundane tasks. The difference in performance for running for example internet, email, Microsoft Word and the like would be to all intents and purposes practically the same. Regards paws

Ah….Thanks for that…..I'm getting more confident by the minute, that my machine is OK. For your info: The two HDDs are partitioned as this (roughly) HDD 1: C Programs 50G; E Page 9.7G; D Data & Files 90G; F Scratch for PShop 90G HDD 2: G Primary Scratch for PShop 97G; H Data Backup 90G; I Spare 47G Having just had another look at the Windows settings for the Paging Files, I noticed that C drive still had a Page File facility so I have turned it off and left E drive as the sole Page File at approx 6G….I guess I could whack that up to 9G???? At least it should stop the C and E drives conflicting when looking for Virtual Memory. The oddest thing, though, is that clicking Properties on the E drives shows that 3G is used space and 6.7G is Free. Also….If I look at Disc Defrag, there is a huge amount of red stuff on C and I am told to defrag it, plus a large area of green stuff on E…which I am supposed to defrag, but I know that it can't be done with Disc Defrag….should I turn off Page File facility and defrag it anyway? Thanks D.

Hi Yes I'd be inclined to turn off your page files (Don't do anything but defrag without them) then defrag about 3 times with a reboot in between each and then set up your page files again and see how you go. Regards paws

Blimey….you're up late! Do you think I should retain just the E drive Page File?…..do I really need one on C drive if E is dedicated as the Page File? I'm having a job getting the Custom size to stay as I set it at the moment…..I stick in 2050 Minimum and say, 8000max, and it allocates 3071! (with a recommendation for 4600). It was showing 6000 allocated before I messed with it!! Regards D.

Hi, I'm off for a few days now (hence the late nights!) Yes I would try as you suggest, I'm afraid there will be an element of "Trial & Error" to get the optimum settings, but with your "flying machine" you don't need optimum…if it works at all it will be a lot better than most folks have ever seen, let alone used! Until your system is bedded in I would let Windows manage your swap file, you are right it is sometimes possible to improve performance by setting your own amounts, but in your case you will get 99.99999999 etc % performance with Mr Gates' splendid product, handling things for you. Regards paws

Have a good rest, then….. Anyway, I think I have tricked it. I set the Page Files for both C & E drives as 'System Managed'….that gave me a recommedation of 4G+ but an actual allocation of 6G+. Having set it and done the reboot, I turned off the Page File on C, but it still leaves me with 6G on E…..or so it says….. A quick question…..my E partition which has (I think) always supposed to be the Page File with 9G+ available, has always shown in Disk Defrag as having two large areas of green, total used approx 3G+. It never changes. Why would this be?….is it set by something elsewhere? PS…Noting your 'co-ords', I am guessing that you aren't a million miles away (near where a group of arrowmakers were at work)….so if you travel you can always stick you nose in… Thanks for all the advice, regards .D

I'm not sure. Normally when you delete the swap file and do a 3 series defrag with a reboot in between and then set up your swap file again it should be defragmented and you should not be getting notification of fragmentation. Suggest you try it agin and see how you go.. Yes If I look out of the workshop window I can just about see the Greenwich meridan (on a clear day that is!!) Regards paws

Are you running 64-bit xp…? Also, with your pagefile, if your going to have one, its not really going matter were its located. On a desktop application, it'd be different. You can put the paging file on its own PHYSICAL drive (which, of course, you would want it to be C:\ or it would defeat the purpose of moving it to begin with) on a desktop box and maybe notice a faster boot but thats about it. Adobe's scratch disk (just like windows paging file) should also be on its own drive. Specially if the files your working with are intensely large.

A tip… if your not using a 64 bit OS…then dont at all.. I, too, am running an AMD 64 bit cpu in this laptop and I have went from vista, to x64 XP Pro, to XP Pro (that, in and of itself was a trick to do with this Acer)



eeek…!

A quick question…..my E partition which has (I think) always supposed to be the Page File with 9G+ available, has always shown in Disk Defrag as having two large areas of green, total used approx 3G+. It never changes.

Just kill your pagefile all together … with 4gb of corsair ddr2, you and anyone within 5 miles of you doesnt need a pagefile (a little humor there). You DONT want your paging file over 2gb… period… specialy with SP2.

Thanks for all the advice…..I am gradually getting a bit of concensus with the information I am gathering before I start making any changes. I am running XP Pro 32bit on a 64bit 'ready' PC…..It was alright until the upgrade but it seems to have shifted or upset a number of things…..anyway…. The two HDDs are partitioned as this (roughly) HDD 1: 'C' Programs 50G; 'E' Page 9.7G; 'D' Data & Files 90G; 'F' Scratch for PShop 90G HDD 2: 'G' Primary Scratch for PShop 97G; 'H' Data Backup 90G; 'I' Spare 47G After the 'upgrade' I found that I had a Page file on C drive and a Page file on E drive, 'System Managed', giving 6G one minute and 3G the next. I have moved the Page file to I drive (leaving a few files on it for the time being) and killed the one on C, just to see if there is a difference….Not much I have to say. The Primary Scratch for Photoshop is on G drive. Before the upgrade, it was originally on 'F' but I have changed it to 'G'…..still not any real difference. I used to be able to work with photoshop file as large as 1.5G….I am now having extreme difficulty with 150Mb. I have tried limiting the Page file to 2G but it seems to want to keep changing even though it isn't system managed. Thanks, D.

well.. your pagefile should be on its own physical drive and it should be the first physical drive. Being that is the first thing your computer looks for when it boots.

Hi Crow….This is where advice I get conflicts. Some say the PageFile should be on the Primary HDD, some say a partition on the Primary HDD, others say on the Secondary HDD. Maybe I should have two Page Files one on HDD1 and one on HDD2??? This PC originally was set up and running OK with what appears to be System Managed Page File on a partition on HDD1…..however, I have since discovered that there may have been another Page File on HDD1 among the Programs and OS partition. I'm lost now. D.