16 replies to this topic

[Jane Mack]

5 months of Multiple BSODs on a brand new computer - driver or hardware error? Mini dump analysis help please.

Hi, I’m looking for anyone who can analyse mini dumps and help me determine the source of my problems.

Problem:
The system has been giving me hell from the start. The problem often manifests in different driver and memory errors - To my level of understanding the errors seem to be fairly unrelated. When it runs well it’s awesome and it really performs. When it starts messing up, that’s it, it might BSOD on every start up 5times in a row and then start working for no apparent reason.

I ruled out: faulty PSU and faulty RAM, and system always runs cool, (the hottest component being the fanless graphics card).

I have also run extensive tests on system hard drive:
Seatools returned no errors after firmware upgrade and 2 long tests. However DiskCheckup keeps changing its mind out predicted TEC date: it jumps from Jan 2010 too Aug 2011 either of which is unacceptable and well within manufacture warranty

Reinstalled windows countless times with different installation CDs

So that leaves MOBO, CPU, GPU or maybe some software of driver issue.

I feel that it must be hardware related but I can’t work out what it is, on top of that the faults are often intermittent making trial and error testing unreliable. I have collected many minidumps now, but I can’t work out if they are related or not – has my comp dozens of problems or just a couple with variegated symptoms.

System:
New build:
MOBO: Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS5 (BIOS F12)
CPU: E8500
PSU: Antec Truepower 650w
GPU: NVIDIA GT9600 fanless GV-NX96T512HP (Gigabyte)
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4gig total) Twin2X4096-8500C5DF
Keyboard & mouse: Logitech Wavepro
DRIVES:
DVD: Liteon (SATA)
Card reader: Generic (internal USB)
HD1 (System): Seagate 500gig (intel ICH10)
HD2 (RAID0 stiped): 2 x Seagate 500gig (intel ICH10)
HD3 WD 1000gig (GSATA)
HD4 Seagate 1000gig (GSATA)

*All the lastest drivers were downloaded from Intel, Nvidia & Gigabyte before install
*BIOS is the lastest version
*RAID bios in operation

Questions:
Q1. Can anybody help me?
Q2. How should I post minidumps and info?

Hard drive questions:
Seatools return no errors. (I have been told that this is the definitive test for a faulty hard drive.)
Q3. PassMark DiskCheckup keeps changing its mind out predicted TEC date. Does this indicate a problem with my hard drive?
Q4. When ever I run chkdsk it says that it has found errors and is repairing them. Does this indicate a problem with my hard drive?

GPU questions:
Video driver has supposedly caused some of the BSODs .
The drag and drop mouse marks don’t disappear – almost as if the screen is not refreshing.
Q5. Could these be signs of a faulty graphics card?

Thanks a lot. I’m beginning to go a little bit mad from all this troubleshooting.

Jane

Edited by Jane Mack, 12 July 2009 - 09:06 AM.

[paws]

Hi, Sorry to hear of the problems you are experiencing with your new machine.... I'm sure there is some reason why you have not returned the new machine under warranty (or consumer protection legislation that exists in your jurisdiction) and insisted that it be replaced immediately with one that works...... However this must be the first thing to consider, as with a new machine its not up to the customer to get the thing working.......that the suppliers job! Let us know how you get on. Regards paws

[Jane Mack]

Hi Paws, The reason I haven’t returned it is because I bought the components from three different suppliers and built it myself and I can not work out which components are faulty. As soon as I find out whats faulty I will RMA appropriately.

[paws]

Hi, Ok Understood Someone will get back to you soon Regards paws

[Jane Mack]

Here are some of my latest dmp analyses:  debuglog_Mini071209_01.dmp_WER0b75.dir00.txt   16.12KB   812 downloads  debuglog_Mini071209_02.dmp.analysis_WER2955.dir00.txt   7.89KB   489 downloads  debuglog_Mini071209_03.dmp_WERe3f3.dir00.txt   4.1KB   440 downloads  debuglog_Mini071209_04.dmp_WER864b.dir00.txt   4.08KB   494 downloads And some of the older dmp analyses:  debuglog_Mini052809_01.txt   15.65KB   512 downloads  debuglog_Mini060409_01.txt   20.08KB   751 downloads  debuglog_Mini060409_02.txt   14.44KB   534 downloads  debuglog_Mini060509_01.txt   15.87KB   378 downloads  debuglog_Mini060609_01.txt   16.44KB   577 downloads  debuglog_Mini060609_02.txt   15.43KB   609 downloads  debuglog_Mini060609_03.txt   15.8KB   566 downloads  debuglog_Mini070409_01.dmp.txt   19.09KB   508 downloads Please let me know if I should post more info or actual dmp files? Thanks

[Jane Mack]

Great! Thanks Paws, I look forward to hearing from them

[paws]

Hi, OK, lets start with some easy stuff first.

1 Disconnect from the Internet (pull the plug if necessary)
2 Boot into safe mode
3 Test your computer in safe mode, here's how
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315222
give it a heavy workout that would ordinarily cause a crash, (But don't use safe mode with networking, just plain old safe mode will do just fine)
(The logic for this is safe mode will only load a minimum set of drivers, if it works OK in safe mode then it could well be a driver issue with one that is loading on a normal boot)
4 You say you have ruled out problems with your RAM... are you sure there are no issues? Have you run the Crucial.com scanner to check for compatibility?
Have you done an overnight Memtest of your RAM? http://www.memtest.org/
5 Make sure you have disconnected everything from your machine apart from the power cable Video output cable keyboard and mouse, everthing else should be disconnected, optical drives empty, flash drives or any USB devices removed including camera mem card, printers scanners etc.
6 There's no easy way to ask this (without risk of offending) but did you take full ESD precautions when building the machine and each time you opened a component packet? Is the Mobo correctly fitted? , no shorts to ground or other components, stand offs correctly fitted or ommitted as necessary and wiring completed properly? Are your BIOS settings those that will work (compatible) with all your stuff? Are all card s ,daughter boards, Video etc correctly seated, double check and then check again your RAM for compatibility correct installation (clicked into place)
Let us know how you go
Regards
paws

[appleoddity]

Are you aware that your "high performance" memory requires 2.1v and not the standard 1.8v to operate?

http://www.corsair.c...96-8500C5DF.pdf

If I had to make a guess, your system is not configured properly to work with this memory. High performance parts need to be configured to manufacturer specifications which are often outside of "default" settings. Your motherboard contains dozens of "performance" specific settings which all could be adjusted and cause problems. If you have not loaded defaults, I would do so now. I would then go through the MIT section of the BIOS and adjust your DRAM voltage and timings to match those of your performance memory modules.

Overclocking is also a no, no, if you are trying to solve an issue like this. So, I would hope that you have everything within manufacturer's specifications. A "load defaults" in BIOS should probably do this for you with the exception of the RAM which needs more voltage and special timings.

As Paws questioned, you did not state how you verified that there were no problems with the items that you mentioned in your original post?

P.S. From the few minidumps I looked at they don't contain anything useful.. It is all random and not leading you in any particular direction. A good sign that there is a hardware failure, particularly RAM.

Edited by appleoddity, 13 July 2009 - 12:21 AM.

[Jane Mack]

Thanks, no offence taken…

The computer is booting again now; however I fear it will crash again anytime, who knows? After several “boot to BSOD events” I left it for 5min and then it started. After a couple of hours… BSOD (repeat cycle for complete picture of recent computer condition)

Paws, in answer to your points suggestions and questions:

1-3. Safe mode boot and stress test: I have tried tests like this before and found the results to be inconclusive because of the seemingly ‘irrationality’ of my system. I’m not sure that heavy workouts do ordinarily cause it to crash, it has crashed during heavy workouts before, other times it can breeze through stability test for hours and then later it will crash seemingly without cause, and then it will ‘boot to BSOD’ for while before working again, its crazy.

I have found that booting in safe mode and running msconfig, diagnostic-startup has allowed me to startup in ‘normal’ after disabling all non system drivers. However other times it has just started after resting it for 5min and trying it again; other times it started working again just because I booted in safe mode once but didn’t do anything (which make no sense to me); other times it it’s started working after continuous (4 or 5) reboots - So the testing for driver error has always been ‘frustrating as hell’ because the computers behaviour is erratic and intermittent.


Please let me know if you want me to proceed with the stress test in safe mode?

4. I went through my RAM issues with The Ram Guy at Corsair a few months ago, and I ran extensive tests with memtest86:

Some of my RAM was failing tests 5 and 6 – (On recommendation) I changed from 4 x 1gig sticks of dominator 1066 MHz too 2 x 2gig sticks of dominator 1066 MHz. After which memtest 86 did 15 or so passes without error. Due to a bios upgrade the voltage and timings are now automatically being set correctly - previously I had to enter them manually. I feel I have investigated RAM extensively and conclusively, (although I could be wrong?).

5. (same as 1-3)

6. ESD precautions: I was always very careful

Is the Mobo correctly fitted: When I first fitted my graphics card I forgot to plug in the Power for PCIe, could this have caused permanent damage and world of instability??

BIOS settings (compatible with hardware): I worked from the basic settings. No over-clocking accept a little extra voltage to memory, (2.1v to spec) MCH and CPU (very little not anywhere near the danger zones). I have checked a number of forums and modelled my settings on the data I collected and the info in the manual.

Cards correctly seated: I have taken them out and re-seated them many times but problem persists

RAM compatibility: Interesting one, The first RAM that I bought was on by the Gigabyte list compatibility list - 4 x 1gig sticks of dominator 1066 MHz (I actually bought two twin packs rather than a pack of four). I replaced that with 2 x 2gig sticks of dominator 1066 MHz (On recommendation from The Ram Guy from Corsair) which strangely was not on the Gigabyte compatibility list. The GA-EP45-DS5 (my gigabyte motherboard) was however on the Corsair compatibility list and guaranteed to work by Corsair.

Short answer: Corsair compatibility list says guaranteed to work.

What about the questions in my first post... any ideas?
So what now?

I know it seems like a nightmare case; complicated, intermittent and inconclusive but any all help is appreciated.

Thanks

[appleoddity]

Hi Jane... You stated that the memory should be "automatically" configured. Have you verified these settings in the BIOS? Also, you mentioned adding more voltage to the memory and something about the CPU?? You cannot troubleshoot a problem like this using non-standard settings. That means no changes in voltages, no changes in clock speeds, no changes in timings. It should all be DEFAULT, except for the memory which requires extra voltage and different timings. That means running your CPU at a 1333Mhz bus speed, and your ram at 667Mhz as it normally would in this situation. Anything other than that and you are basically wasting your time. You can't mess with voltages, timings, and clock rates and not suspect that it is those changes that are causing your problems. EDIT: Your E8500 runs at 333Mhz x 9.5. This puts your memory at 667Mhz.. (2:1 ratio)

Edited by appleoddity, 13 July 2009 - 12:14 PM.

[Jane Mack]

Thankyou for posting Appleoddity,
Thanks for your research/links, also

In answer to your first post:

RAM: My voltage is at 2.1 and my timings are at 5-5-5-15 at 1066 (set by automatically by F12 bios through the “Extreme memory profile” setting of “Auto”
MCH core raised from 1.1v to 1.22v
CPU vcore: auto
CPU speed 333x9.5
Overclocking: Everything is already set to standard defaults
Robust graphics booster: auto
Performance enhance: standard

Verification of PSU: I tested my PSU a couple of days ago with a multimeter. I ran a stress test with pc wizard and tested the voltage between the earth and: all points on the main connector to the motherboard, CPU power, and GPU power. All were well within 4% of what they should have been.

P.S. I found your post script message interesting, but if it’s not my RAM what else would cause erratic behaviour?

thanks again to both of you

[Jane Mack]

"667Mhz.. (2:1 ratio)" should I set this manualy in bios?

[appleoddity]

I would try it.. The problem here is that you have a really nice motherboard with a lot of settings. Some of these boards, Gigabyte, included have "auto" overclocking settings that are supposed to take the guess work out of things. Its possible that something like that has caused a problem. After loading setup defaults, I would try to turn off any type of "dynamic" overclocking options like extreme memory, robust graphics booster, performance enhance, etc. I would also turn off any "spread spectrum" settings. The problem is in identifying those settings with so many different options available. The manual shows the available options, but it doesn't show what different settings are available for each option, so I can't tell you. After turning off the above things, then, try setting your memory to the 2.1v, 5-5-5-15 that you setup previously. I'm not sure how to explain the 667Mhz memory settings, but this is the "natural" speed that it would run at for your processor because it has a 333Mhz clock speed (true speed would be 666Mhz, but we call it 667Mhz). Anything else is kind of a non-standard setting similiar to overclocking and could be causing a problem. Again, this is all for testing purposes, but you should take all of this out of the picture for now. If things don't run stable at all the standard settings (all dynamic boosters, and overclocking turned off) then you can be sure that you have an actual hardware problem. If the system runs stable with these settings, then you can start to adjust them one at a time until you find out what is causing instability. As you said, the problems are intermittent and it is very difficult to troubleshoot. No matter what you do, it will take time and persistence. If the computer is running stable, run it hard for several days to be sure before introducing a new change. I'm only pushing this issue strongly because many times when I see a custom built system like this with problems similiar to yours it is because of this "high performance" stuff that just doesn't want to play well together. Usually it involves RAM. If you had some generic 667Mhz PC5300 RAM, it would be a worthy test to use that for a while. Be sure to reset your memory settings in the BIOS again though before using it.

Edited by appleoddity, 13 July 2009 - 01:09 PM.

[Jane Mack]

appleoddity, OK, That sounds very sensible, I will try your suggestion and change my RAM settings 667 and see if that changes things. I’ll also try to see if can invoke a crash with an extended stability test. I imagine that I could pick up some stock ram for very little, that might be worth a go also. Only thing I’m confused about is my perfect test results with current settings on memtest86. Do you really think it could be RAM when it passes metest86 flawlessly? The other thing is the funny traces of left after drag and drop copying of files; they look like little dotted outlines – traces of the folders icons or thumbnails. It happens all the time, it disappears when I open or close a window. Where do you think that comes from? Thanks, I’ll let you know what happens with my bios changes.

[appleoddity]

Sounds like it could also be a bad video card.. You could have bad video memory on board, or the card could be over heating because it is fanless and some of them get quite warm if sufficient air isn't moving over them. Remember though, your motherboard may over clocking something that effects the video card also. Such as that graphics booster thing you mentioned. Its a trial and error game. The memory tests can't be 100% relied upon. It would be better to eliminate that possible issue all together for now.